Vegas Law Talk

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Leslie Stovall: morning this is
Vegas law talk this Leslie

Stovall. Today I have Mr. John
wanderer, who's been a dear

friend of mine for many years as
a guest. John, would you like

say, hi. Hello, everybody. John,
how long have we known each

other? I think my recollection
takes me back to the mid 80s.

John Wanderer: That's your
recollection is pretty quick.

It's vital that when you started
practicing, I believe, Hey,

Unknown: John, the other day, I
saw a movie called Ford versus

Ferrari. And I thought about
you. I know you were part of the

Holman group or the Holman team,
that have you seen that movie?

I didn't see the movie brought
back a lot of memories. Not

exactly the most accurate movie
on the world, but it was good.

It was good movie.

So John, John, tell me, what was
your involvement with the

homeland group? And, you know,
in the context of the movie, I

think that movie dealt with the
1966 LeMans race and the GT 40

project. So what was Homans
involvement, and what was your

involvement with Holman at that
time,

all under Modi, they were asked
by Ford to undertake there have

a race. A number of the cars,
basically in competition with

Shelby American Ford was not
that enamored by Shelby and Ford

had done business with Holman
and moody for many years. In

fact, Holman and Moody was
pretty much the national

distribution center for all
their high performance parts

back in the early 1960s. So when
Ford decided to do this, I had

been involved with a number of
different projects within Holman

and moody for Ford, Lexus,
building their track cars, rally

cars, nothing's in that nature.
And home at Ford requested. The

John Holman put me in charge of
the homeowner moody GT project

for the 1966 and 67 LeMans.

So what did what did Holman
moody do with the GT 40 to meet

that demand?

Well, we first got the cars, I
think we first got our first car

or second car, I'm not sure
which I can remember. I do

remember flying to California,
with another person from home in

a movie to assemble one or two
cars. And as far as a race car

goes, we thought there's a lot
lacking here. One is profit.

First problem was it was too
heavy. And there were other

problems with the cars. But Ford
was taking care of those brake

issues and things of this nature
and transmissions. Ford ended up

developing drone transmissions
they were developing with Kelsey

Hayes company their own brakes.
But in any event, we were we

were we took the cars, we got
them back to Charlotte, we're on

Holman and Moody was located.
And I was given quite a bit of

freedom to do with the cars is
as we felt was necessary to a

tournament to better race cars.

What Where did the cars
originally come from? You say

you took delivery of a car. So
that sounds like

the actual chassis of the car
was built in England. It was it

was a product of Lola company in
England. All right. Sure. The

design was done by Eric
broadleaf. not mistaken. And and

the cars were marketed as simply
as a GT 40. They had a small

block Ford engineering. They
weren't particularly marketed as

a race car. They were marketed
and sold as a

sort of sportscar watch car.
Yeah. Yeah.

We shall we first got involved
with it. They tried to convert

the cut the streetcar into an
actual race car. And they made

certain changes to it. And then
at some point in time, in

Detroit, there's a gentleman by
the name of Roy one that will

you in who ran who's an employee
of Ford Motor Company, and he

ran a an engineering shop called
Car Craft. And he was very much

involved with taking this
standard GT 40 and making a race

car out of it. And he was the
one who Ultimately, after they

decided the smallblock engine
would not produce enough

horsepower, that they used the
427 engines that were developed

for the NASCAR side cars, right?
Yeah, that's quite a different

motor than what was originally
in that car. Absolutely,

absolutely. And had to be
changes made to the chassis to

hold that car. That engine,
which was

the cars, the cars that you're
receiving at home and moody,

moody, were those 427 motors in
those

days, those cars were had been
adapted for the 427 engine. What

we did was go out to Shelby
shop, there are some basic

chassis, we hung the suspension
pieces on it, fitted the body to

it, and then took the cars back
to Charlotte.

So what kind of things are you
doing to the car in Charlotte

before you started campaigning,
or racing that particular

vehicle?

Well, from the very start, our
objective was to make the car

lighter and to make the car
safer. The cars didn't have roll

bars, the fuel cells that were
in them quite heavy or the whole

side, left and right side of the
car. Between wheels is all fuel.

And they had these very heavy
fuel cells that apparently

Shelby American had developed it
acquired. And we felt that they

were all too heavy, which wasn't
wasn't part of our progress is

to lighten this car up. Right.
So we put first with the roll

bars and we had lightweight fuel
cells made from the Firestone

company.

Well you change suspension
pieces to did you know,

we did change suspension piece
if we had all our own springs

made. The shock absorbers made.
We had our own stabilizers made

the cars ran at Daytona Beach.
And because the engines in the

rear of the car and and there's
a lot of loading on the chassis

and in the high band corners. We
developed a an auxilary torsion

bar to go on the right rear to
support chassis. If you put a

spring in there was heavy enough
to run through the high banks it

would be too heavy. And the two
heaviest spring in the LeMans

flat part of the Daytona track.
Oh I see. So it was lots of

things we did the cars we the
oil tanks was up front and meant

the oil lines had to come down
through the passenger

compartment made the inside of
the car extremely hot. Best

thing to do was move the oil
tank rear. They had the

aftermarket Stewart Warner fuel
pumps that you can go buy at the

auto parts store the auto parts
store, very unreliable. We went

and sourced a an aircraft fuel
pump the pump that was actually

inside the tank, which in those
days as far as automobiles go

unheard of. But we concluded if
they're safe enough airplanes,

they're safe enough for this
race car.

So how long after you got your
cars? Did you come to race in

LeMans? Because the Ford and
Ferrari show was about I think

it focused on the

60s 66 LeMans race actually, as
soon as we got the cars. There

was a race in Daytona Beach,
which was referenced in the

movie. We had two cars in that
race. One had an automatic

transmission that Ford was
experimenting with the other

car, ran in the race and
actually finished second at the

tone race. The next place we ran
into cars was at Sebring where

Ford won the race was a Shelby
car. It was a a version of the

GT 40. Mark Two was an open top
car that Roy Leung had had

built. Right. That car won the
race set a new record. And

Holman moody car finished
second.

So tell me about the LeMans 66
race that the show was based on

or part of at least you how many
cars did you take over to run

that race?

In 66, we built four cars. Three
of them that were run by almond

mot, they were all GT 40 Mark
twos, the 427 engines, and a

fourth car that we built to be
run by afforda France.

So what about Shelby how many
cars they take for that six,

six, right? They

took three cars over there.

So how did that race go? I mean,
it seemed like a pretty exciting

race. From your perspective,
what was what stood out to you

in the six to six months

in the 66 bonds race is it was
we I thought it was a pretty

ordinary race. We had some
different issues. We had

problems with the brakes. Mons,
you have a straightaway a little

over seven miles one. You're
dealing with cars that go over

200 mile an hour and the end of
that seven miles straightaways

are sharp right hand corner and
the cars stencil breaking. If

you were out there, you would
see that these discs and these

cars are red hot. What happened
is reminds were 24 hour race.

You racing to three o'clock in
the morning. It's cold out lots

of humidity. And the we found
that the the desks were

undergoing thermal shock and
resulting in them flying apart

literally a piece of the iron
flying off of the disk.

How did you guys remedy that? Or
were you able to you just kept

kept changing discs? Right.
Right. I wanted to ask you

before we talked about the
finish of that race, which was

depicted in the movie. You would
have told me in the past that

Andretti was driving was he
driving for Ferrari?

No. Oh and drive he was driving
for

okay he did he have a crash
during that race.

He didn't crash in that race. He
crashed in the 67 race I see

which caused a chain link events
which actually took out his car

and two of the other cars at
home are moody it built

and you built cars for Andretti
later on in your career with

Holman moody, correct.

I did. It was a circuit a
sportscar series in the United

States and then called the Ken
Ham series. They were basically

unlimited sports cars and the
the the top cars in those days

were the Chaparral was sponsored
by General Motors right the plan

clarens which also had
sponsorship from financial

health from General Motors. And
Ford really didn't have a car in

the in the race at that time
with a car was designed in

England by shoppers run by Alan
man. Alan man is the guy who

built the the car and for the
Chitty Chitty Bang Bang movie.

Right, right. The car you saw
floating in the air with the

wings on Yeah, and that was an
actual car that Alan man had

built for the movie. And Alan
ban designed the cam car. Not he

personally but I forgot the name
of the actual designer. With

that car was built with the idea
in mind that Mario Andretti

would drive it in the canyon
series

Eisley and so well Paul Newman
was also part of that cannamd

racing.

Well, that's what got Paul
Newman interested in. In racing

at all. It was his first. That
was his first introduction to

sportscar racing.

Well, that's really interesting.
I want to go back to the six six

LeMans. Did did Ford actually
tell those cars to slow down and

come across together?

While we'd already told the cars
to slow down because we wanted

to make sure that they finished.
And the competition by this time

they dropped out. So the cars
were lapping probably 10 seconds

slower than what they would have
been if they had been racing.

And yeah, for dead for publicity
purposes. They wanted the cars

the front to to be in the
picture of coming across the

finish line in the first three
spots and had them line up that

way.

Did that actually cause Ken
Miles to lose that race?

It did. Why can miles thought he
was ahead. And he actually came

across the finish line a couple
of feet ahead of Christmas Amon

or Bruce McLaren, who was in the
other car thinking that he had

won the race because he crossed
the finish line first. But the

organizers of the race ruled to
the contrary. They said because

the Chris Amon Bruce McLaren car
had had started further back in

the pits behind the starting
line that they had actually When

you took that into
consideration, they had actually

traveled a greater distance than
the Ken Miles car. So they got

to win. That's terrible. And Ken
Miles was very I understand very

upset. I didn't have a lot of
input. A lot to do with Ken

Miles. I've been talking to him
and he seemed like a very nice

guy.

Well, between 66 and 67 LeMans
races. It was at when Ken Miles

died. Yes, not what you were
actually present on the

racetrack. One was, what what
happened? What what car was he

driving what happened to Ken
Miles as he was driving

a car that was called the J car.
The J car was a creation of Roy

Lund, who we spoke about
earlier, right. And it was a car

that was built out of aluminum
honeycomb structure. And it was

the the tub we call it or the
chassis was actually built by

for Ford, by Brunswick
aerospace, right. And into this

aluminum honeycomb structure.
They had various brackets, which

all the suspension was bolted
to, et cetera. And that was the

J card and the J car had a funny
looking body on it didn't have

the greatest stability. It was
light. It was fast. It basically

had the same engine as the as
the mark twos did, that'd be the

427 427. Right? And so they were
testing the car at Riverside,

California on the road course,
they had lost control of the car

at the end of the straightaway
and went off the track. And the

honeycomb structure basically
all fell apart. And in Canada

was killed.

You were you were we were
talking about this at one time.

And you said you disagreed with
the Ford analysis of what

occurred in that crash? Well,

it was no real Ford analysis. It
was a test report from the

Shelby American people. I have a
their version was that there was

a mechanical part of the car
broke, causing the crash. I saw

happens that over the back
stretch of Riverside Raceway,

there was a pedestrian overpass
which you could go on stand on

and look at the cars as they
went by. And myself and a fella

by the name of Homer Perry, who
was worked for Ford special

vehicles, and was the person who
was in charge of all of the

LeMans programming. He and I
were looking at the car as it

went by. And it appeared to us
that due to instability the back

of the car came up, caused the
car to spin out. And that's what

caused the accident. That was
not in the show people report.

And in fact, after Ken Miles's
accident the frame was the

honeycombed was constructed
differently, or it was assembled

differently. Is that correct?
Yeah, the

first thing that happened was is
is Ford put the car away. Ford

Ford was very adverse to bad
publicity. So the car

disappeared. And and that
reappeared a number of months

later, as a Ford GT mark four.
And that's the car that you see

winning, who actually won the 67
race. And if you saw the movie

of

Ford versus right, a Ford versus

Ferrari, and at the end, there
were Ken Miles got in the car

red car and drove off. And then
you see the cloud industry

crash. The car he got into was
in fact, a marked mark for the

mark four it was really the
jaycar Oh, the difference thing

is is had a new tail and no
longer had the the short, boxy

tail that the jaycar head. And
of course they did have made a

lot of structural changes to the
to the honeycomb chassis. So the

problem never really occurred
ever. When the car was recreated

as the mark for it was no longer
any

chassis issues with what you
told me they even riveted the

chassis differently.

They did start with the
honeycombs chassis, which the

honeycomb itself was about an
inch, probably an inch, maybe an

extra quarter inch a thick and
originally, all of it was glued

together. It was all flat panels
and they were just glued

together. And then the the
bracketry was riveted but not

all the way through the
honeycomb What's spacers between

it stopped collapsing. Right? It
was just riveted to the skin.

And it was glued. Everything was
glued. Right. So when the car

was recreated as Mark for all of
the glue joints on the honeycomb

tub itself were reinforced with
angle irons that were glued and

riveted through all the way
through the honeycomb. And all

of the bracketry holding the
holding the the engine, the

suspension pieces, all of that
was properly installed. blued

and riveted always.

How did your cars do and the C
seven was raised?

Well, we had the two Mark fours
and the mark three and the

Shelby had the same. The mark
the with the mark for the Mario

Andretti was driving one of the
mark fours for us. And he ended

up crashing. And when he did
crash, just by coincidence,

another one of our mark fours
got swept up in the same

accident, as did the mark two
for Florida France. Oh, man, and

that left us with only one mark
to left. And it has some form of

mechanical trouble and was out
of the race. Shelby's cars.

Their mark two fell out of the
race. Their Mark, one of their

mark fours fell out of the race.
And the only car left was one

mark four, which was really
driven by Dan Gurney and AJ

Foyt, they make it through and
they won the race.

There you go. And those are
really another set of drivers

that were very well known and
famous for their driving skills.

Wow. Well, you your work with
Holman moody really sounds well,

it's very interesting.

Lots of projects started out
with the Falcon rally cars in

1962. And then, I was in then we
built 1964 We built the Mustang

rally cars. I was in charge of
building those, went to Europe

with them and actually drove one
of the service vehicles and

stopped along the way and, and
fixed the Porsche was being

driven by Ferdinand Porsche. All
right, I fixed it as a shock

absorber amount had broken I
stopped and fixed it for

well, you from rally cars, you
went to funny cars. Well, I call

him funny cars. I think you had
a different designation for him.

They have Ford abilities, saying
a little head game cam engine

for 20 sevens for use in NASCAR
and NASCAR wouldn't allow him to

run them. So Ford decided to use
them as drag cars. And they sent

10 Mustangs down to Homer moody
and I was in charge of modifying

the cars to put these engines in
them and altering the wheelbase

on rear wheels and move forward
three or four axes completely

different front suspension in
order to get the cars at the

entrance into cars. So we built
those 10 Those went out to

factory for drivers around the
country and and then and then

the some of the those cars were
called FX cars factory

experimental. And

those are the ones you'd see on
the just a drag race right

straight quarter mile

straight quarter mile drag race
now pretty much pretty much

standard looking Mustangs. Yeah,
I had fiberglass fenders on

fabric as decklid and these big
very large engines.

Yeah, but they were cranking it
on a quarter mile. Yes, they

were.

But they they evolved into a
tirely different car. After we

built those 10 I was in charge
of building for more of the

cars, which had extended front
wheelbase the front wheels were

moved I think 18 inches forward.
So had very long goods, the

engines will move back. The
bodies were now totally

fiberglass. There wasn't nothing
on the cars that came off of a

Mustang. Though they did look
like a Mustang because there

were funny cars. Nowadays, the
funny cars don't look like the

car anymore, right? And those
days and the night 19 6060 Force

1965 the NIHR rules were pretty
strict, the car still look like

a car

and where the term funny car
come from.

I'm not sure where it's picked
up. I guess it was just because

the deviation from the standard
car

was funny. It was funny looking.
Yeah. And from your funny car

project, then you went to the GT
40 project. Is that correct?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yah,
yah, yah, I was put in charge of

the GT cars after the track
cars. And then after GT, you

went to the cannamd. Then we
built the cannamd car for Mario

Andretti. And after that, what
did you do after that? That was

the end of that was beginning
around 1968. And that's when

Ford decided it was going to
stop racing on anyway, when for

when Ford when Ford quit racing
and 68. They actually did some

racing and 68. They built
another can Amkor. But they,

they stopped all of the they
stopped all of the GT race

stuff. And stuff you were doing.
The stuff that I was doing is

that when you went to law
school, as soon after, I stayed

all through 68. And John Holman,
decided that he could make a lot

of money, taking wrecked diesel
trucks, and wedding different

frames together and making one
out of two pieces. And the end.

So we did that for a while. But
I didn't have a lot to do with

that. Right It was going on. So
I decided that it was time for

me to move on. And so on January
119 60, and I'm packed up and

left and left on good terms at
home. And when it came time to

go to law school when I use the
money. John Holman just sent me

money

that was very generous, and

ultimately sent it back and gave
it back to them. But there's no

strings attached only strings
attached was he says, If I gave

you the money, you will maybe
you'll come back.

Sounds like a nice guy.

You're a nice guy.

You in fact, are featured in the
history of John of Holman moody.

There's a book

out there is there is in that
book pretty extensively,

right? Was Dottie involved in
writing that book, by the way,

no. Daddy's Daddy,

Daddy, Daddy Parker at the time,
and then was Daddy wonder. She

was John Homans executive
secretary. That's how you met.

That's how I met Dottie. And we
were married in 1860 67. I

believe

I have nothing but fond memories
of Dottie. She's a wonderful

person. wonderful person.

She almost didn't marry me
because I wouldn't take her.

Did you take her to Mons? Oh,
oh,

no, I wouldn't. I had decided
that nobody would go from Holman

and moody, who didn't have a
specific job need to be there.

There were a lot of different
employees thought that they

should give me a comment. I said
no, no, no. There

you go. John, I've really
enjoyed talking to you. I'd like

to invite you back. Would you be
willing to come back? Sure.

Well, that'd be wonderful.
Again, it's so nice seeing you.

It's always a pleasure. Thank
you very much, John.

You're welcome. Good to be here.

Thank you.